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 Post subject: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:56 pm 
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No, it's not as epic as you'd think...
http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/investi ... d=12548022

MIDLOTHIAN, Va. (AP) - When 10-year-old Austin Smith heard Barack Obama had been elected president, he had one question: Does this mean I won't get a new gun for Christmas?

That brought his mother, the camouflage-clad Rachel Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Smith), to Bob Moates Sports Shop on Thursday, where she was picking out that special 20-gauge shotgun -- one of at least five weapons she plans to buy before Obama takes office in January.

Like Smith, gun enthusiasts nationwide are stocking up on firearms out of fears that the combination of an Obama administration and a Democrat-dominated Congress will result in tough new gun laws.

"I think they're going to really try to crack down on guns and make it harder for people to try to purchase them," said Smith, 32, who taught all five of her children -- ages 4 to 10 -- to shoot because the family relies on game for food.

Last month, as an Obama win looked increasingly inevitable, there were more than 108,000 more background checks for gun purchases than in October 2007, a 15 percent increase. And they were up about 8 percent for the year as of Oct. 26, according to the FBI.

No data was available for gun purchases this week, but gun shops from suburban Virginia to the Rockies report record sales since Tuesday's election.

"They're scared to death of losing their rights," said David Hancock, manager of Bob Moates, where sales have nearly doubled in the past week and are up 15 percent for the year. On Election Day, salespeople were called in on their day off because of the crowd.

Obama has said he respects Americans' Second Amendment right to bear arms, but that he favours "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault and concealed weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:52 pm 
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Why are such a lot of Americans such numbskull redneck morons?

G.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm 
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well I agree and disagree with you Graham. Yeah, I too disparage American (Western) stupidity but I also agree with the right to bear arms, albeit 'sensibly'... assault weapons are not the greatest gift for a 10 year old... well, it may be the 'greatest' gift for the 10 year old, it's just not the most sensible.

Then again, I think people should own guns in lieu of a police force and with the intent to overthrow any governing body that exerts itself upon them. Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Gun Rights vs. Centralization
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, April 9, 2003
Mr. Speaker, I rise today as a firm believer in the Second amendment and an opponent of all federal gun laws. In fact, I have introduced legislation, the Second Amendment Restoration Act (HR 153), which repeals misguided federal gun control laws such as the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban. I believe the Second amendment is one of the foundations of our constitutional liberties. However, Mr. Speaker, another foundation of those liberties is the oath all of us took to respect constitutional limits on federal power. While I understand and sympathize with the goals of the proponents of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 1036), this bill exceeds those constitutional limitations, and so I must oppose it.
It is long past time for Congress to recognize that not every problem requires a federal solution. This country's founders understood the need to separate power between federal, state, and local governments to maximize individual liberty and make government most responsive to citizens. The reservation of most powers to the states strictly limited the role of the federal government in dealing with civil liability matters; it reserved jurisdiction over matters of civil tort, such as alleged gun-related negligence suits, to the state legislatures.
While I am against the federalization of tort reform, I must voice my complete disapproval of the very nature of these suits brought against gun manufacturers. Lawsuits for monetary damages from gun violence should be filed against the perpetrators of those crimes, not gun manufacturers! Holding manufacturers liable for harm they could neither foresee nor prevent is irresponsible and outlandish. The company that makes a properly functioning product in accordance with the law is acting lawfully, and thus should not be taken to court because of misuse by the purchaser (or in many cases, by a criminal who stole the weapon). Clearly these lawsuits are motivated not by a concern for justice, but by a search for deep pockets and a fanatical anti-gun political agenda.
However, Mr. Speaker, the most disturbing aspect of these lawsuits is the idea that guns, which are inanimate objects, are somehow responsible for crimes. HR 1036 shifts the focus away from criminals and their responsibility for their actions. It adds to the cult of irresponsibility that government unfortunately so often promotes. This further erodes the ethics of individual responsibility for one's own actions that must form the basis of a free and moral society. The root problem of violence is not the gun in the hand, but the gun in the heart: each person is accountable for the deeds that flow out of his or her own heart. One can resort to any means available to commit a crime, such as knives, fertilizer, pipes, or baseball bats. Should we start suing the manufacturers of these products as well because they are used in crimes? Of course not – the implications are preposterous.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights. Despite these lawsuits, the number one threat to gun ownership remains a federal government freed of its constitutional restraints. Expanding that government in any way, no matter how just the cause may seem, is not in the interests of gun owners or lovers of liberty.
In conclusion, while I share the concern over the lawsuits against gun manufacturers, which inspired HR 1036, this bill continues the disturbing trend toward federalization of tort law. Enhancing the power of the federal government is not in the long-term interests of defenders of the Second amendment and other constitutional liberties. Therefore, I must oppose this bill.
Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

The Worldwide Gun Control Movement
by Ron Paul

The United Nations is holding a conference beginning this week in New York that ironically coincides with our national 4th of July holiday. It’s ironic because those attending the conference want to do away with one of our most fundamental constitutional freedoms – the right to bear arms.
The stated goal of the conference is to eliminate trading in small arms, but the real goal is to advance a worldwide gun control movement that ultimately supercedes national laws, including our own 2nd Amendment. Many UN observers believe the conference will set the stage in coming years for an international gun control treaty.
Fortunately, U.S. gun owners have responded with an avalanche of letters to the American delegation to the conference, asking that none of our tax dollars be used to further UN anti-gun proposals. But we cannot discount the growing power of international law, whether through the UN, the World Trade Organization, or the NAFTA and CAFTA treaties. Gun rights advocates must understand that the forces behind globalism are hostile toward our Constitution and national sovereignty in general. Our 2nd Amendment means nothing to UN officials.
Domestically, the gun control movement has lost momentum in recent years. The Democratic Party has been conspicuously silent on the issue in recent elections because they know it’s a political loser. In the midst of declining public support for new gun laws, more and more states have adopted concealed-carry programs. The September 11th terrorist attacks and last summer’s hurricanes only made matters worse for gun control proponents, as millions of Americans were starkly reminded that we cannot rely on government to protect us from criminals.
So it makes sense that perhaps the biggest threat to gun rights in America today comes not from domestic lawmakers, but from abroad.
For more than a decade the United Nations has waged a campaign to undermine Second Amendment rights in America. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called on members of the Security Council to address the “easy availability” of small arms and light weapons, by which he means all privately owned firearms. In response, the Security Council released a report calling for a comprehensive program of worldwide gun control, a report that admonishes the U.S. and praises the restrictive gun laws of Red China and France!
It’s no surprise that UN officials dislike what they view as our gun culture. After all, these are the people who placed a huge anti-gun statue on American soil at UN headquarters in New York. The statue depicts a pistol with the barrel tied into a knot, a not-too-subtle message aimed squarely at the U.S.
They believe in global government, and armed people could stand in the way of their goals. They certainly don’t care about our Constitution or the Second Amendment. But the conflict between the UN position on private ownership of firearms and our Second Amendment cannot be reconciled. How can we as a nation justify our membership in an organization that is actively hostile to one of our most fundamental constitutional rights? What if the UN decided that free speech was too inflammatory and should be restricted? Would we discard the First Amendment to comply with the UN agenda?
The UN claims to serve human freedom and dignity, but gun control often serves as a gateway to tyranny. Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control. Our Founders, having just expelled the British army, knew that the right to bear arms serves as the guardian of every other right. This is the principle so often ignored by both sides in the gun control debate. Only armed citizens can resist tyrannical government.
June 27, 2006
Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:39 pm 
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That 'bring down the government with guns if they piss us off' shit isn't worth the lie it's printed on, especially as the government run the army. If the gun nuts didn't bring down the last lot of lunatics they're sure as shit not going to do it in the future, especially as, to my biased foreign mind at least, gun-owning is a much more Republicunt than Dimocrat thing. And anyway, how do you get people to rebel against comfort? As long as people aren't starving and can watch shite on the telly, they will do less than fucking zero to upset the governmental status quo because they just don't fucking care.

This country isn't mentally and emotionally mature enough to own guns. Every week you seem to get some insane story about, say as a week or two go, some eight-year-old shooting himself in the head with a fucking Uzi cos his daddykins thought it would be cool to have his kid shoot one at a shooting range. Absolute madness. I just resent the idea of being a victim of some pathetic sociopathic loon with a grudge of the type that seems to go on a shooting spree regularly in this country cos of some centuries-old pish about a 'well-armed militia', is all. I see the NRA dicks going on about how gun rights disenfranchise 'minorities'. Yeah right. Suits them to have blacks killing each other. The whole gun culture in this country is rotten from top to bottom. But coming from a country with little gun crime, I would say that, wouldn't I, ungrateful love-it-or-leave-it foreigner that I am.

G.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:19 pm 
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Graham Rae wrote:
But coming from a country with little gun crime, I would say that, wouldn't I, ungrateful love-it-or-leave-it foreigner that I am.
G.


Yeah, I'm from a similar boat... people in Canada seem far more saner, even in their media hyped hysteria than what the US goes through... though the idea of an armed rebellion is a bit old fashioned. The idea of an army itself is laughable, now that we can cripple the infrastructure of a country through enforced loans/high credit via The World Bank economic standards.

Ezra Pound warned us...

But I think that revolutions will have to take on a similar terrain: do whatever the Hell you want to do, do it discreetly and if someone shows force against you: that's where the gun "rights" come in.

The run of the mill sociopath who shoots up a post office is a rare event, the bureaucratic and militaristic ones are more commonplace. The wrong people have the weapons already. They have weapons and power (these people have turned the World into a weapon) we wouldnt dream of giving anyone, we are already living in a worstcase scenario re: the proliferation of arms, so why not cut the shit, give everyone an AK-47 and make it a real democracy?

Honestly, I see no difference between "chaos" and what we have now. Who knows, perhaps if people were quick to kill, a lot of that repressive moral law and property restiction + monopoly would go away... perhaps people are reasonable and can "police" themselves. I mean what's to stop someone from murdering you now? The law? The police? That's a pretty bleak outlook...


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:18 am 
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It recently dawned on me that while I was being born, in Toronto, Canada, in 1943, some very well dressed people were shoving thousands of other people into ovens, while other well dressed people herded hundreds of thousands of people into gas chambers.

Of the many acts the well dressed people did to effect these atrocities, the first thing done was to confiscate all of the firearms belonging as property to the people who ended up in the ovens and gas chambers.

If anyone thinks that this can't happen again, at best they are sleep-walking and at worst, they live on the far side of idiocy.

I don't live in America, but I know that the firearms lobby there has a strong connection to the christian fundamentalist right wing. I think this is very unfortunate. There are many unfortunate things about america. The worst for me being the belief that white, american christians are the best people. The well dressed people previously mentioned held very similar beliefs.

Living in Canada, I abide by very strict laws around firearms ownership. In the UK, where a recent ban and confiscation of firearms took place, home invasions are up a staggering 600%. Criminals are all in favor of gun bans. Gun bans are very good for criminal business.

All of the target shooters and hunters that I know, are stridently anti-religious or professed atheists.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't!" - Benjamin Franklin.

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Gary Lee-Nova
"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable.
But there it sits, nevertheless, calmly licking its chops.
" - H.L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:35 pm 
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Hmmm. Genuinely not trying to be disrespectful in anything I say here, but I would like clarification of the UK remark before I take it seriously. Where was it printed? What is the timeframe it refers to? A 'recent' gun ban? When was that? What areas of the map and populace does it encompass? Socially deprived? Affluent? All the variant sociological and psychological and media-venue factors that make it worth considering. The UK has a vastly different mindset than America does gun-wise. People don't use guns to defend their homes. There was one single case of that sort of thing years ago, when a paranoid homeowner killed a gypsy teenager who broke into his home and was harshly prosecuted for it, but that was a total anomaly. It never has had much of a gun culture, though that has changed over the last few years in places like Manchester and areas of London where drug dealer assholes and yardies have imported American gangsta pish. Comparing the UK and America is utterly specious. They are vastly different places with vastly different cultures, gun and otherwise.

People are not reasonable and cannot police themselves. Utopian thinking. Shit, even other apes in the wild form posses to police their ranks. We are apes. And we will never lose that violent ook-ook shitflinger streak.

G.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:07 pm 
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"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."
William Burroughs


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:33 pm 
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Graham Rae wrote:
People are not reasonable and cannot police themselves. Utopian thinking. Shit, even other apes in the wild form posses to police their ranks. We are apes. And we will never lose that violent ook-ook shitflinger streak.

G.


I was thinking in terms of the Old West, where people lived quite fine until some rich tycoons came in, bought off the sheriff OR brought in some Pinketon goons and made life unbearable so the people would leave (and they could buy up the land) or pulled some protoUnion breaker shit.

But even in the mythology, the lesson of the Old West was that the good-sheriff provides a false sense of security and when he gets gunned down, things go to Hell because people arent prepared to take the initiative. The posse was always stronger... you know, that old Libertarian/Johnson angle where you'd take care of your own and they'd do the same- but it was your responsibility to take care of your own.

Property and Freedom are only what you can maintain, not what's granted to you and protected at the mercy of the bigger gorilla. Both ways, a gun is the great equillizer and a better test of democracy (the more people, the more weapons, the majority of power, rather than a small group being the majority under the current system).

as an aside to a fellow Canuck:
GLN wrote:
It recently dawned on me that while I was being born, in Toronto, Canada, in 1943, some very well dressed people were shoving thousands of other people into ovens, while other well dressed people herded hundreds of thousands of people into gas chambers.

are you aware of the Japanese Internment Camps? or how PM King complied with Hitler's diplomatic pressures to reject the transfer of 900 Jewish refugees (on the SS St. Louis)? I believe the famous quote by him is "one Jew is too many"... A Part of Our Heritage

Sorry, just some left over bitterness from Sucker's Day...


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:14 pm 
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Burroughs, "The War Universe"

"All this uproar about these so-called assault weapons is absurd. Any weapon is an assault weapon depending on how it's used."

"After a shooting spree they always wanna take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military."

"The minute people start feeling secure without cops around, that's bad for the cops. I feel quite secure without any cops around. Hell, what do I need cops for? I got guns."

And last but not least, this is Burroughs' version of non-violent protest. It never fails to crack me up.

"The one thing that would bring the whole police situation to its knees, and I've been advocating it for a long time now, is a criminal strike. Every criminal agrees not to commit any crime for one day. Wouldn't that really paralyze the whole system? After four days of that, they'd say about the police, 'Why do we need these people?'"

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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Any weapon can be an assault weapon, yes, but I have a much better chance of survival if some asswipe goes on a rampage with a knife a la an Amok than if he starts spraying a crowd with an assault weapon.

I don't care at all about WSB's obsession with guns, as large a part of his life as it was. Tend to think that a man who shot his wife in the head, and then went on to develop an even bigger obsession with guns, is not to be listened to on the subject. What all these 'cold dead hand' characters forget is one simple fact. If the government wished to disarm the populace, all it has to do is stop manufacturing bullets, or make them only available for cops and the army through martial law or something...and privately-held guns could be used as a paddle for the canoe up shit creek after an initial burst of angry citizen round-shooting.

I will never like or be interested in guns; shot them once at a shooting range and it was boring as fuck. But then again, that's just me. And many fucking others disgusted by the gun-obsessed sociopaths in the NRA who gloated about their recent lawsuit-waving horseshit victory overturning that gun ban. Sick cunts.

Sigh.

G.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:10 am 
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if you were the victim of a home invasion, your feeling about guns would probably change quick, that is if you survived, and survival is the name of the game. i've enjoyed going to gun ranges, outdoors ones are the most fun, and having a variety of guns to shoot makes it more interesting; but just firing your one gun for home protection i find a great concentration exercise. my wife is also a decent shot, and when i travel alone i feel much less concerned about her safety.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:47 am 
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Graham Rae wrote:
Hmmm. Genuinely not trying to be disrespectful in anything I say here, but I would like clarification of the UK remark before I take it seriously. Where was it printed? What is the timeframe it refers to? A 'recent' gun ban? When was that? What areas of the map and populace does it encompass? Socially deprived? Affluent? All the variant sociological and psychological and media-venue factors that make it worth considering. G.

Graham - the UK handgun ban was enacted in 1997. Below are some links to some of the academic studies of crime rates before and after firearm bans in the US, Canada, Australia and the UK.

http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/Mauser-Gangs-Guns-1.pdf

http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/KatesMauserHJPP.pdf

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb1107.pdf

http://www.garymauser.net/NZ_Paper.htm

http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/TowerPresentation.ppt.pdf

Some of the work by Gary Mauser has Excel charts to download to accompany the main document.

The Institute of Economic Affairs (http://iea.org.uk) recently published a report titled "Prohibitions," edited by John Meadowcroft. The report is about why outlawing particular goods and services is bad public policy and why politicians like to. It's 140 pages, but every page is worth the read.

The best place in North America to have a heart attack in public is the beautiful city of Seattle, Washington. Why? Because one in ten citizens in Seattle knows CPR.

Personally, I believe a properly armed society is a very polite society. And if one in ten urban citizens was properly licensed for concealed carry of a firearm, our cities would be a far more polite society than what it is today.

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Gary Lee-Nova
"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable.
But there it sits, nevertheless, calmly licking its chops.
" - H.L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Obama elect causes upsurge in gun purchases
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:14 pm 
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johnny wrote:
if you were the victim of a home invasion, your feeling about guns would probably change quick, that is if you survived, and survival is the name of the game. i've enjoyed going to gun ranges, outdoors ones are the most fun, and having a variety of guns to shoot makes it more interesting; but just firing your one gun for home protection i find a great concentration exercise. my wife is also a decent shot, and when i travel alone i feel much less concerned about her safety.

My partner and I also enjoy a beautiful outdoor shooting range, several actually. We have never used an indoor range and I don't think we ever will.

It's possible that Johnny has a fun time on an outdoor range because everyone present is extremely conscious of the safety of everyone present. The only place in the world where I feel 100% safe, is on a shooting range.

In Canada, it is legal to have a semi-auto handgun and a full magazine at the ready, in your locked gun safe.

I have practised, many, many times, in the dark, unlocking the safe (it has an illuminated push button keypad), putting the magazine in the gun and making it ready to fire.

I don't want to ever have a need to fire a loaded gun at anybody. I don't believe in shooting people or killing people. But I also believe I have a right to self-defense and this belief trumps the former two.

_________________
Gary Lee-Nova
"Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable.
But there it sits, nevertheless, calmly licking its chops.
" - H.L. Mencken


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