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"You know the logical conclusion readched by certain Tibetan Buddhists who wall themselves in a little cell with a slot where food is pushed in at them, and stay there till they die. This is not my idea of a good deal"

(wsb in a letter to keruack, 18/9/1950)


...but were wsb's experimentations radically different? expanding his mind by various mind altering drugs (which he later claimed generated states of consciousness which could all be achieved without drugs, which is precisely what buddhists do in deep, profound and rzor-sharp meditations, discouraging mind altering substances, barring them to monks)?

holing himself up in a windowless bunker to better concentrate on his writing, locking out the outside world so mundane sense impressions won't itnerfere with the process of accesing your deep layers of consciousness?

...and in that wonderful understated, humorous, warm and packing a punch way of his, stating that there probably is something after death, otherwise why did it take so much effort to get there? (and buddhists do indeed believe there is something beyond, another life, namely, though not necessarily in a similar form or even world, and working, i.e. wiping out your bad karma and planting seeds of virtue, is what samsara is all about, as well as wisdom, of course, the sixth perfection).

"My Present orientation is diametrically opposed [to], therfore perhaps progression from, Buddhism. I saw we are here in human form to learn by the human hieroglyphs of love and suffering"

(wsb to keruack, 24/5/1954)

This, perhaps, is the nub of the matter. Buddhists do preach love for all sentient beings, indeed, particularly mahayanists, but theirs is an abstract sort of love, an equinomous (sp?) compassion.

Anyway, I got tons i can say on this matter, but i want to see if it's of any interest.

gady b
http://thaye.net

??´?;w the logical conclusion readched by certain Tibetan Buddhists who wall themselves in a little cell with a slot where food is pushed in at them, and stay there till they die. This is not my idea of a good deal"
(wsb in a letter to keruack, 18/9/1950)

In prison that's called solitary confinment.

...but were wsb's experimentations radically different? expanding his mind by various mind altering drugs (which he later claimed generated states of consciousness which could all be achieved without drugs, which is precisely what buddhists do in deep, profound and rzor-sharp meditations, discouraging mind altering substances, barring them to monks)?

I'd say they were different and Burroughs's approach more desirable. It's much easier for me to take a few tokes off a joint than to start counting my breaths. Although I do try and do some meditation on occasion.

holing himself up in a windowless bunker to better concentrate on his writing, locking out the outside world so mundane sense impressions won't itnerfere with the process of accesing your deep layers of consciousness?

Uh dude he went out for walks, had people over and so on. Hardly the same as sitting in a cell waiting for your rice.

...and in that wonderful understated, humorous, warm and packing a punch way of his, stating that there probably is something after death, otherwise why did it take so much effort to get there? (and buddhists do indeed believe there is something beyond, another life, namely, though not necessarily in a similar form or even world, and working, i.e. wiping out your bad karma and planting seeds of virtue, is what samsara is all about, as well as wisdom, of course, the sixth perfection).

Dreams: Burroughs said may hold the key to any afterlife and also to future space travel.

"My Present orientation is diametrically opposed [to], therfore perhaps progression from, Buddhism. I saw we are here in human form to learn by the human hieroglyphs of love and suffering"
(wsb to keruack, 24/5/1954)
This, perhaps, is the nub of the matter. Buddhists do preach love for all sentient beings, indeed, particularly mahayanists, but theirs is an abstract sort of love, an equinomous (sp?) compassion.

What do some prisoners tatoo on their knuckles: LOVE and HATE. I think that says it all.

Anyway, I got tons i can say on this matter, but i want to see if it's of any interest.

I'm interested (in these subjects).

well, johnny, at least here we're not sparring.

I admit it's not the same, but i think the difference is mainly in extent and methodology, not necessarily in essence.

To me, burroughs is some sort of a negative wrathful bodhisattva, which do have their place, actually, in the tibetan pantheon. He immersed himself in the heaviest darkest shit the western civilization could offer, in a sort of via della rosa whose expression was a biting satire and an overturning of values on the western establishment.

My favourite book (regarding that thread) is the western lands, and second best is nova express... in the much underappreciated eighties 'red night' trilogy, he quotes, if i remember correctly, these bible belt moralists who are outraged by overt homosexuality, and in 'the wild boys' he offers an image of jubilant subversive counterculture, shocking and brilliant. His deconstruction of the western myths puncture the holes of vanity, confront us with the lie in it all, in much the same way some tibetan buddhist shock tactics would operate, for instance the incredible 'wheel weapon'.

What is probably a crucial difference is the attitude to pain and suffering. burroughs glorifies them, in a sense, he says he would have shot his wife all over again to be a writer, yet fully acknowledges the pain it caused him (a remarkable statement, quite horrifying, actually). in the quote i extracted, he says suffering is part of the way for us, which is in strict contra-distinction to the buddhist goal which is actually the elimination of all forms of suffering and its causes. wsb, in a way, is christian, though i'm sure he would turn and rumble in his grave at this observation.

though i must add that the meaning of 'dukkha', usually rendered as 'suffering', is uninomously (sp?) held to be much more pervasive, including various sorts of discomfort and all the unpleasant things about being alive, being conditioned and dependent, trying to hold on to fleeting pleasure and happiness, i could go on and on about buddhism but better stop. in that wider sense, i think, burroughs would agree, as a great beloved friend of mine once told me 'i'm tired of all this 3D shit, aren't you?'

...and on a side note, buddhism also condemns homosexuality, namely the use of orifices other than the customary for sexual contact. the dalai lama has convened with gay people, but said that it is not in his authority to overrule this. yet jeffrey hopkins, imho the leading tibetan buddhologist in the west (though unfortunately overshadowed by the less brilliant and more media-savvy robert thurman, father of uma), has come out of the closet, and he is still in close touch with tibuddhists, he used to be the dalai lama's chief translator on lecture tours.

he even adapted a tibetan love manual to gay folk. LOL!

I njoy reading anything between burroughs and kerouack, if you have any more of these quotes , please post.
Now I have a general knowledge on budhism, but I think that when we talk about burroughs we should also consider the time and the place he was living,grew up , etc.

Are the Cure Buddhist? just kiddin' I couldn't resist. Noting wrong with a little sparring. Shows at least that we're alive!
Well, you could make an argument that Burroughs's philosophy was akin to Satanism too; another very misunderstood school of thought. When I first read the Satanic Bible I couldn't find anything that I didn't agree with. And Burroughs did belong to some secret group - I forget who and would have to do research to find out who they were exactly - but as I remember they were from the Left Hand path. The way I operate and from my reading of Burroughs I think the way he operated too was to take what applied to him from ANY other school of thought. Burroughs was really for the individual which entirely appeals to me. I don't know what you mean by "Burroughs glorifies pain and suffering" Have you read his last book Final Words? There are some interesting passages that I believe would address this as he drew closer to death. His characters do glorify the pain and suffering of their enemies, but that's different. Burroughs has stated that he believed in many Gods often in conflict. That doesn't sound Christian or Buddhist to me, more like Paganism.

"... he says he would have shot his wife all over again to be a writer, yet fully acknowledges the pain it caused him (a remarkable statement, quite horrifying, actually)."

I'm sorry but I've never heard him say nor have never read where he has said this. He has said that he probably wouldn't have become a writer if not for this horrible incident - because he was emotionally adrift after the death and writing helped to ground him.

I second that.

sorry, there was i mistake here, and since previously i couldn't edit, i sent it again, fixed, read on if you wish.

Well, yeah, I didn't say Burroughs is Buddhist, no way, but I do think his techniques of consciousness investigation resemble some far eastern stuff, especially buddhist, which isn't that surprising, actually, since both Buddhism and Burroughs use deep penetrative methods.

...and the Cure are definitely not buddhist, though in my review of Bloodflowers, on the Blind Janitor, Israel's largest collection of music reviews online, I mentioned that when I went nuts in the far east, I thought Robert Smith was a buddhist monk, and found quotes in his lyrics that seem to say so. I was totally bonkers, of course, nevertheless there is something in the lyrics, i could quote if you wish. But the suffering issue turns up here as well, the westerners probably don't have it in their culture to think escaping suffering is worthy, or possible.

Tzina, I took these quotes from the excellent volume compiled by oliver harris of letters by burroughs. It's easy to find and very revealing. Yeah, i agree we should take the time and place he wrote it in to mind, and there was actually not a lot known about buddhism until more than a handful of westerners started acquainting themselves with the original languages and until the influx of great tibetan buddhist masters into refuge and into the west, starting in 59. Buddhism was due to this lack of knowledge seen as something nihilistic, which is far from the truth, simplistic. Philosophically, at least, buddhism posits the middle path between nihilism and eternalism, avoiding both extremes. It is somewhat life-negating, but nearly all indian-born religions seek release from samsara, hindus and jains and (i think - correct me if i'm wrong) sikhs as well.

I can't find the quote that i referred to regarding the shooting anywhere. I'm nearly positive I read it somewhere, it shocked me at the time, but perhaps I didn't understand it correctly, or maybe it was misquoted somewhere. sorry. If it really wasn't said by wsb, i made a grave mistake and i'm sorry. The cute and pleasently deranged will self said that there was at least a semblance of an admission of intent and guilt on wsb's part. I'm not sure I agree, wsb said he was controlled by some malignant force, but apparently he did have premonitions of the act, or at least a sense of dread, and being drunk is no excuse, people retain some element of control even in an acid trip, i know, i've tried

I can't find the quote that i referred to regarding the shooting anywhere. I'm nearly positive I read it somewhere, it shocked me at the time, but perhaps I didn't understand it correctly, or maybe it was misquoted somewhere. sorry. If it really wasn't said by wsb, i made a grave mistake and i'm sorry.

Well, hells bells - we all make mistakes. Actually it’s kinda funny. It was probably a bad translation. The Ugly Spirit that Burroughs talks about is very interesting. I'm sure we all know exactly what he means by that.

i could quote if you wish. But the suffering issue turns up here as well, the westerners probably don't have it in their culture to think escaping suffering is worthy, or possible.

You've lost me here. I think most anyone would prefer to escape suffering, unless they’re masochistic and enjoy it. Are you talking about physical suffering or psychic suffering? Physical suffering would be pretty much eliminated by opiates, that is as long as they're continuously taken. And an argument could be made that healthy living would also reduce much suffering: diet, exercise, meditation and so on. Didn't Buddha say "Life is suffering." I always took that to mean that it was part of life and must be accepted. Ginsberg said something like "...the pain and joy of being alive." But perhaps you mean by reincarnation, to eventually reach nirvana hence no suffering? Anyway, an interesting can of worms you've opened there.

Interesting... though I couldn't correct you, I must admitt I am the less informed about it.
when I said we should consider time and place , I kind of meant that burroughs was a city person. and the city was nothing like today back then. The whole thing was completely different back then.

He was initiated into the IOT I believe . (Illuminated Order Of Thanateros)